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ABOUT
 2013 2014 2015 2016 2017 2018


Ron V's DNA Experience
(aka: Genetic Genealogy)
 last page update: 07/12/2022

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 INTRODUCTION

CLICK HERE for an INTRODUCTION to my experience with DNA testing.

Scroll down for a timeline of my experience  . . .
   (or CLICK HERE for a summary Index)


1997

FIRST EMAIL
In mid-March, I contacted Sheridan Vincent of Vincent-Family.org after viewing his website for the first time.  For years we wondered if we were related.  Sheridan yDNA tested in 2006.  On Jan. 12, 2010 after I had tested, Sheridan and I compared our yDNA results.  We are NOT related.  That was one of my first DNA learning experiences.  Just because we share the same surname, it doesn't mean we're biologically related.  All of Sheridan's Vincent family and all of my Vincent family descended from two biologically unrelated men in different geographical locations. 

Sheridan and I are now administrators of the Vincent DNA Project (see 2013).


2001

FIRST DNA TEST
I was a member of a Personal Ancestral File (PAF) Users Group in Birmingham, Alabama in the fall of 2001.  PAF is genealogy software.  We received an invitation to participate in a genetic study.  Click HERE to see the invitation sent by our PAF Users Group secretary.  We were told to bring our 4 generation biological pedigree charts.

My wife, Susie, and I arrived at 10:00 AM, October 13, 2001.  We were met by representatives of Brigham Young University from Provo, UT.  They said our DNA samples would be part of The Molecular Genealogy Research Project (MGRP), a program that lasted from 2000 until 2003 when Sorenson withdrew funding and established the Sorenson Molecular Genealogy Foundation (SMGF)1.

We were given a 4-page set of Project Papers explaining the purpose of the MGRP.  The BYU representatives confirmed that, "Participants ... will not receive any information back," and "Participating ... does not imply necessarily" that we would ever see our results, although they did say some might see them eventually.  In other words, we tested but we might never know what became of the test.  I found out my results by accident in 2008.  Scroll down to see.

We were given a Consent Form to sign and one to keep for our records.  At the top of my copy I penciled in my assigned sample ID: USAAL2-21406 which means "U.S.A. Alabama second visit" (their second time in Alabama) and my sample number.  Mine was "the 21,406th sample received by the project."  A nurse took our blood.


2003

DNA TESTING BEFORE LOVED ONES PASS ON
From the late 1980s until the late 2000s, I experimented with many different software "APs" for genealogy.  One of them was Ancestral Quest.  In 2003 Ancestral Quest mailed an Introductory Letter and an SMGF Brochure.  This was when SMGF had taken over the project from BYU.  It had nothing to do with my 2001 blood sample but it reminded me SMGF was serious about collecting data.  It also shows that by 2003 they had switched from collecting blood samples to taking saliva samples.  

On August 18th, 2003 my wife Susie died of colon cancer.  She never got to see her DNA results which were later destroyed by AncestryDNA.  See 2010 for more info.


2008

RESULTS DISCOVERED
I remarried.  Linda and I volunteered in 2007 to help in our church's Family History Department (FHD) in Utah.  While there we came to know a man who was Dr. Scott Woodward's college professor.  Woodward was founder of BYU's MGRP who went on to be president of SMGF.  I learned that Sorenson was still in business.  While searching the net on the evening of Jan. 26th, 2008, I stumbled upon the Sorenson website and discovered my DNA was available.  No name was displayed but I could tell it was mine from the 4-generation pedigree I had submitted when I tested in 2001.  When people tell me they've had to wait 6 to 8 weeks for their DNA results I always smile.  It took me 7 years before I saw mine but that's the way it was for those of us who first contributed to the SMGF database.  They told us there were no guarantees we would ever see the results and they made no promise to contact us.

Don Vincent created the Vincent DNA Project the end of January 2008.  CLICK HERE for Don's history and experience with DNA as well as his story of how he and Terry Barton created the Vincent DNA Project.  Don is a very distant cousin of Sheridan Vincent.  Their line of Vincents is not related to ours.


2009

SMGF - GENETREE  (my 1st testing company)
I contacted SMGF who told me to visit Genetree.com, their commercial arm.  November 12, 2009 I paid Genetree $49.50 to "unlock" my yDNA results (SMGF Screen Shot).  While reviewing my SMGF yDNA results from Genetree, I discovered I was related somehow to Warren Power of New Zealand.

December 2009 I began corresponding via Genetree / SMGF with Warren Power, administrator of his own DNA project.  My yDNA results showed we were related.  We didn't learn until years later that our common ancestor lived many centuries ago before surnames came into use.  Genetic genealogy was still in its infancy and technology was crude in 2009.


2010

MTDNA TEST
On February 23, 2010, I paid Genetree another $49.50 to "unlock" my mtDNA results.  Your mtDNA test won't help with your genealogy unless you test your full sequence.  It only helps you learn about your ethnicity.  I didn't test full sequence until years later so my mtDNA results were pretty useless.

Ancestry.com bought out Genetree.com which closed in 2012.  Ancestry.com closed the SMGF/Genetree databases and decided to never release results.  Ancestry.com only needed Genetree's people and their labs so they destroyed my test sample and results along with thousands of others who had tested with Genetree or SMGF.  

Warren Power convinced me to enter my yDNA results into YSearch.org.  I made many mistakes entering my yDNA results manually.  This led to mismatches and frustration.  Warren helped me correct some of them.  As I learned more about DNA surname projects, I discovered there was one for my Vincent surname.  I signed up for a free membership at WorldFamilies.net the first week of January 2010.  

It's sad how Genetree, YSearch, and WorldFamilies no longer exist.  SMGF's website is still valid but has completely changed.  They're now a health advisory company although they do have some helpful aids on understanding genetic genealogy.

As for AncestryDNA's purchase of GeneTree and SMGF data and samples, in 2012 DNA expert and blogger Roberta Estes wrote an excellent (and scathing) post about the demise of these companies and their data.  CLICK HERE to read it (you'll be taken to her website for her lengthy article).  AncestryDNA chose to destroy the DNA samples and remove from public view the DNA test results.  People like me who had deceased loved ones would never be able to retrieve their results.


2013

FIRST TEST WITH FTDNA.COM / Y-DNA37  (my 2nd testing company)
January 18th, 2013, I paid Family Tree DNA (FTDNA.com) $62.00 to "convert" my 46 marker SMGF yDNA results to FTDNA's 37 marker test (Y-DNA37).  It was actually a retest.  They let me upload my SMGF results manually which finally appeared on their website in March 14th 2013 as "Y-DNA - Advanced Y-STR Markers."  But those were my results from SMGF which I had manually entered.  I was still waiting on my yDNA results from my test with Family Tree DNA.

FTDNA.com's software upgrade problems prevented me from receiving my Y-DNA37 results until April 17th -- 3 months after I paid for the test.  I was glad to see they're basically the same as SMGF / Genetree.  Testing with a different company is like buying a different newspaper to read the same news.  When you're discussing the paper with someone else, it's better when you're both looking at the same paper.  

CLICK HERE for a 5-page PDF file of FTDNA.com's history.


FTDNA.COM - MTDNA TEST
In January 2013, I also paid $149.00 for a retest of my mtDNA.  My matriarchal DNA results were not helpful in my genealogy research until years later when I upgraded my mtDNA test to what's falled the "Full Sequence" test.  

BECOMING A PROJECT ADMINISTRATOR
The administrator of the Vincent DNA Project, Don Vincent, was unable to continue.  Terry Barton who owned WorldFamilies.net asked me to be administrator on June 5, 2013.  I reluctantly accepted.  I've known about genetic DNA since 2001 but my correct understanding didn't begin until 2013 when I got my FTDNA results back and became a project administrator.  Administering the project wasn't hard.  Terry and his team were very good at holding my hand until I was ready to remove the training wheels.

FTDNA.com created new group pages in October 2014.  Since then, the project pages at WorldFamilies.net have ceased to exist. 
The FTDNA.com Vincent DNA Project is HERE.

An additional administrator
I joined Find-A-Grave on September 25th, 2007.  In March 2013, I corresponded with another FindaGrave researcher about my 2nd-great-grandfather.  Caroline Feistand I discovered that her mother is my 3rd cousin.  Caroline is now one of the Vincent DNA Project administrators.  Along with Sheridan Vincent, each of us freely contributes what we know to our project members.  Later, Sheridan resigned as admin because of time limitations.  He needed to focus all his time on his professional photography (http://www.sheridanvincentphotography.com/).  Currently the Vincent DNA Project (July 2022) has 194 members.

MORE TESTING / Family Finder
yDNA tells us about our male lineage / surname line.  
mtDNA covers only our matriarchal line (mother's mother's mother, etc.).  
Autosomal results (atDNA) covers everything else including yDNA and mtDNAa but the yDNA and mtDNA information is very limited with the Autosomal test.

I purchased my autosomal DNA test from FTDNA.com in July 2013 and received my results a month later.

Autosomal testing is relatively new (no pun intended).  I purchased my first autosomal test in 2013.  Family Tree DNA calls it their "Family Finder" test.  I've had great success with it.  The Family Finder test is especially great for females who don't have a yDNA donar.  If you want to learn how and when to use the tools for autosomal DNA at FTDNA.com, at GEDMatch or any other website with atDNA tools, there's a huge learning curve in understanding what makes this test tick.  Today (2018), 5 years after I tested, FTDNA.com still has the smallest database of autosomal DNA testing companies.  It shows how intimidated people are about learning how to use these tools.  But Family Tree DNA is the only testing company that offers tools to help decipher what your autosomal test results mean.  That's why it's important to test with more than one company.  Other companies simply tell you that you match someone else without explaining how they know.  

There are two big problems with that.  
- One is because matches are often wrong.  if you don't have the tools to analyze the data, you'll never know the company has matched you with someone you are not related to.  
- The other reason is because we each have 4 grandparents, 8 great-grandparents, 16 g-g-granparents, and so on.  Any of these could be a common ancestor with an autosomal match.  How would we know which?  
Only Ancestry.com provides you with your match's genealogy and even then only under certain conditions.  That's a problem because Ancestry.com does not provide the tools to analyze how they came up with the match.  They rely on your match's genealogy research which is wrong many times.  There's a high error rate with that setup.  But if you're happy knowing that 1 or 2 out of every 10 relatives they identify for you is not actually related to you, that's fine.  It's not all bad.  Their error rate used to be a lot higher.  They're really improved their results over the years.  I recommend AncestryDNA first for people who don't care to prove how they're related to someone else just as long as they pretty sure they are related.

MORE TESTING / Y-DNA67
There are increasing degrees of yDNA tests, Y-DNA37, Y-DNA67, Y-DNA111, and Y-DNA500, each at a higher cost than the previous.  I upgraded from Y-DNA37 to YDNA-67 on December 29th, 2013.  I received my Y-DNA67 results February 8th, 2014.


2014

ADVANCED YDNA TESTING / Big-Y
Only FTDNA.com (Family Tree DNA) offers mtDNA and yDNA testing.  Only FTDNA.com offers the Big-Y test.  The Big-Y is a very expensive test that tests for 1,000s of possible SNPs (See Ref.#2).  "SNP" is an acronym for one of the tiniest DNA markers that is meaningful to genealogists.  SNP mutations have occurred throughout time and many have approximate dates.  Research for yDNA SNPs is only a few years old.  One day we hope to discover a SNP in our DNA that can identify each of us as a "Vincent" relative.  We are very near discovering that now (2018).

I received a sponsored test kit for my Big-Y test on September 11th, 2014.  Test results came back Dec. 9, 2014.  Results from another company called Y-Full and from another DNA research project called the Z63 Project show our Vincents are descended from Vikings.  Our particular line matches a group of Vikings whose ancestors are from the county of York, England.  Vikings settled in York about 1,200 years ago.  So far, all they've proved is that my closest ancestor who matches their ancestor lived 2,000 years ago.  Clearly we will never know any of their names.  We only know when and where they lived.


2015

JOINING PROJECTS AND REFINING OUR YDNA HAPLOGROUP
A "Haplogroup" is a name for something that only applies to yDNA and mtDNA testing.  This is useful information.  It helps establish your ethnicity.  Some companies can tell you your yDNA and mtDNA Haplogroups pretty accurately by looking at your autosomal DNA.  23andMe.com is one such company.  But for total accuracy a "Terminal SNP" must be ascertained  by SNP testing.  Most people do not purchase this because their previous tests "estimate" their Haplogroup with nearly 100% accurate.

Initially FTDNA.com estimated my Haplogroup and said it was I1 but one of my markers indicated I was probably I-Z63.  As research continued, they changed it to I-M253 and guaranteed near 100% accuracy. Several biologically related people joined the I-Z63 Haplogroup Project.  They then signed up for YFull, a company that analyzes your results and with further analysis more Haplogroup branches were discovered.  Think of these branches as divisions of our human family.  My ancient male ancestor, thousands and thousands of years ago, is represented by I1.  Many centuries later he had a male descendant represented by I-M253.  Later, I-Z63 was discovered.  When these people lived can only be estimated for now but here's what my Haplo currently (2018) looks like, edited for greater clarity:
I1-
     |_I-M253
           |_I-Z63 (4,000 to 5,000 years ago)
                  |_BY351 (about 3,830 years ago)
                         |_BY3407 (2,000 years ago)
                                 |_Y10994
                                         |_BY34499
                                                  |_Y43589

Each of these strange looking numbers is called a SNP.  The last one is called the "Terminal SNP."  Each has a date of discovery.  Because this type research is very, very new, most of these were discovered in the past5 years.

Because of my Big-Y results, I-Z63 became my Terminal SNP on February 3, 2015.  As new discoveries are made, more and more SNP mutations are discovered.  Some occured thousands of years ago.  Some SNP mutations happened just a few centuries ago.  My family is on the lookout for the yDNA SNP mutation of our earliest Vincent ancestor.  Researchers are now very close to discovering it.   Because of research that people like me and my kin are doing now, some day (perhaps soon), a man might be able to pay for a simple SNP test and determine with certainty who his earliest known male ancestor was, what his surname was, and where and when he lived.  This will be important for both men and women because women will be able to get any male relative to test for them to know who that man's male surname ancestor was.


MORE TESTING / Y-DNA111
On July 14, 2015, FTDNA.com posted my Y-DNA111 results.  This further refined our STRs to the highest level possible thereby giving all y111 matches the smallest genetic distance possible per mutation.  "STR" is another name for one of the type yDNA markers that helps determine who is related to whom.  The y111 test is more accurate than the y67 test I upgraded to on December 29th, 2013 from my initial FTDNA.com y37 test which I purchased on January 18th, 2013.

A NEW DNA PROJECT
My wife tested her DNA then got her brother to test.  I got my mother's double-first cousin to test.  I couldn't ask them to join the Vincent DNA Project.  None of them were biologically related to the Vincents.  Still, I wanted them all in a project so I could help them all with DNA questions.  Project managers at FTDNAl.com can see what their project members see.  By the way, the only company that offers project management is FTDNA.com.

I learned from cousin Caroline that she had created a small group for just her relatives.  She called her group "Carolines Cousins."  In December 2015 I requested approval by Family Tree DNA and was granted my own project called Rons Relatives.  It started with 7 members and only has 16 members today, a very small group.  But being in a group gives us access to each other's results so we can help each other.  Only FTDNA.com offers that and they provide excellent analysis tools.


2016

My Y-HAP-Backbone test results (See Ref.#2) were uploaded by FTDNA.com January 13, 2016.  That test was free, part of Family Tree DNA's guarantee to provide a completely accurate Haplogroup analysis. 

ANCESTRY.COM DNA TEST  (my 3rd testing company)
Every December some of the testing companies host a Christmas sale.  It's always the biggest sale of the year.  I have several relatives who have only tested their DNA through Ancestry.com which offers only an autosomal DNA test.  Doesn't matter how many other tests you've taken, if you haven't tested with the same company as another person, you can't match that person because your test results won't appear in their testing company's database.  My wife and I have been members of Ancestry.com since 2007.  

On November 28, 2016, I ordered my DNA test with Ancestry.com.  I received the kit December 2nd, took the saliva sample and shipped it back.   Ancestry's lab received it December 8th.  I got my results back before Christmas.  AncestryDNA doesn't have any DNA analysis tools like FTDNA or GEDmatch but they have the largest database of all plus they have this enormous database of family trees.  Through there family trees I've been able to connect with several new cousins.


2017

On August 16, 2017, I ordered my mtFull Sequence.  I had previously tested my mtDNA HVR1 and HVR2 regions with SMGF (see 2010) and FTDNA (see 2013) but neither test is very effective for genealogy.  I didn't learn much from the Full Sequence test but at least now I've tested in case matches appear in the future.  Previous tests are good only for matches of ancient origin whereas the Full Sequence test can identify a common ancestor within the past few hundred years.


 2018

23andMe TEST  (my 4th testing company)
There are what's called the "Big 3" testing companies: Ancestry.com, FTDNA.com, and 23andMe.com.  There's a 4th big company, MyHeritage.com, but they use the same lab as Family Tree DNA so they offer a free upload from FTDNA.com.  Some of my relatives have tested at 23andMe.com but with no other testing company.  Because they have one of the largest databases, I chose to include them in my profile.  On 15 Jun 2018 I ordered a Health + Ancestry test from 23andMe.com.  I was surprised how quickly they processed my order.  It shipped the next day on the 16th, I received it, took the saliva sample, and returned the kit on the 21st, they received it in their lab on the 26th, processed it, and posted my results at 3:07AM on July 8th which was less than 2 weeks after they received my sample.  That's fast for a testing company!  None of the other testing companies moved that quickly.

In case anyone wants to know, AncestryDNA has the largest database (as of 2018) and 23andMe has the 2nd largest.  That's only for autosomal DNA, though.  Neither of these companies has any data for yDNA or mtDNA because neither of them offers those tests.  A person can potentially find different cousins in each database.


PLEASE NOTE: At our lineage website, http://vincentfamily.org/, we eventually hope to connect paper trails and DNA research.

~Ron.V~
Email Me - Click HERE

 INDEX:
Intro:
Introduction
1997:
My first contact with Sheridan Vincent. Years later, DNA proved we were not related. 
2001:
Tested with SMGF (Sorenson Molecular Genealogy Foundation). 
2003:
My first wife passed away before we got her DNA results. 
2008:
I discovered my DNA results were available online.


The Vincent DNA Project was created by Don Vincent (not related to us).
2009:
My 1st test company.  Paid Genetree.com for my yDNA results. 


I "met" Warren Power via email. 
2010:
Paid Genetree.com for my mtDNA results. 
2013:
My 2nd tesing company.  Paid FTDNA.com to verify my yDNA results and my mtDNA results. 


I became the administrator for the Vincent DNA Project. 


I "met" cousin Caroline Feist on Find-a-grave. 


I purchsed my first autosomal DNA test called "Family Finder" at FTDNA.com. 


Upgraded from Y-DNA37 to Y-DNA67. 
2014:
Big-Y test results.
2015:
Joined the Z63 DNA Project. 


Refined my Haplogroup. 


Created the Rons Relatives DNA Project.


Upgraded from Y-DNA67 to Y-DNA111.
2016:
My 3rd tesing company.  Ordered an AncestryDNA test.
2017:
Ordered my mtDNA Full Sequence Test.
2018:
My 4th tesing company.  Ordered a 23andMe test.
2021:
Big-Y 500 test was upgraded to Big-Y 700.


My son Adam and brother Larry were Big-Y tested.



References:
1- For more details of the BYU / Sorenson connection, see BYU's page on the subject as well as the MGRP's page on Wikipedia.
2- Kit# B3604 has tested positive for the following SNPs: BY3406+, M253+, Z63+
         The I1 Vincent Big-Y kit (366062) has tested positive and negative (as indicated) for the following SNPs:
BY151+, BY3406+, BY3406+, BY3407+, BY3408+, BY3409+, BY3410+, CTS10058+, CTS10140+, CTS10338+, CTS10436-, CTS10611-, CTS10834+, CTS11036+, CTS11042+, CTS11441+, CTS11526+, CTS11552+, CTS11775+, CTS11783+, CTS11950+, CTS1393+, CTS2193+, CTS2375+, CTS2514+, CTS2524+, CTS2644+, CTS2738+, CTS3517+, CTS3654+, CTS3802-, CTS3843+, CTS3848-, CTS3849-, CTS4088+, CTS4130+, CTS4279-, CTS4295+, CTS4437+, CTS4848+, CTS4926-, CTS4982+, CTS5167+, CTS5408+, CTS5513+, CTS565+, CTS5650+, CTS5705+, CTS571+, CTS5783+, CTS5884+, CTS5891+, CTS5908+, CTS5993+, CTS6140+, CTS6221+, CTS623+, CTS6265+, CTS6395+, CTS641+, CTS6629+, CTS674+, CTS6932+, CTS7267+, CTS7329+, CTS7492-, CTS7831+, CTS7949+, CTS8178-, CTS8333+, CTS8345+, CTS8394+, CTS8420+, CTS8716+, CTS88+, CTS8876+, CTS9240+, CTS9264+, CTS9288+, DF41-, F1008-, F1209+, F3692+, F552+, F719+, FGC22149-, FGC8027+, L1065-, L1066-, L118+, L121+, L123+, L1237-, L124+, L125+, L1272-, L132+, L15+, L157-, L16+, L187+, L350+, L362-, L403+, L41+, L468+, L470+, L498+, L509+, L574+, L575+, L578+, L584-, L643-, L701-, L740+, L748+, L75+, L750+, L751+, L755+, L756+, L758+, L759+, L772+, L80+, L81+, L849-, M168+, M170+, M213+, M235+, M253+, M258+, M294+, M299+, M307+, M3453-, M42+, M450+, M89+, M94+, M9771-, P123+, P124+, P125+, P126+, P127+, P129+, P130+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P195_2-, P212+, P30+, P314-, P316+, P53_3-, PAGES00026+, PAGES00081+, PAGES00123+, PF2591+, PF2608+, PF2611+, PF2615+, PF2747+, PF2748+, PF2749+, PF2770+, PF3562+, PF3574+, PF3639+, PF3640+, PF3641+, PF3660+, PF3666+, PF3672+, PF3675+, PF3677+, PF3780+, PF3800+, PF3804+, PF3809+, PF3811+, PF3814+, PF3815+, PF3819+, PF3822+, PF3836+, PF3837+, PF5371-, PF6464+, PF6469+, PF6470+, PF6477+, PF6479+, PF6520+, PR683-, S19819-, S2348-, S2348-, S2348-, S4442-, S4442-, S4442-, S4442-, V241+, V250+, Y10992+, Y10993+, Y10994+, YSC0000207+, YSC0000227+, YSC0000256+, YSC0000272+, YSC0000301+, Z12228+, Z1296-, Z17694-, Z17911-, Z2109-, Z2222-, Z2338-, Z23532-, Z63+